Q:

TRANSKRIP PENUH WAWANCARA PERTAMA ANTARA DATO' SERI ANWAR IBRAHIM DENGAN PARA WARTAWAN SEHARI SELEPAS BELIAU DILUCUTKAN JAWATAN SEBAGAI TIMBALAN PERDANA MENTERI DAN MENTERI KEWANGAN PADA 3 SEP 1998 (Nota: Anda tidak akan memperolehi teks penuh ini dalam mana-mana media cetak).

Saya akan buat kenyataan dulu. Saya memang sudah menduga ini akan berlaku. Semalam (Rabu 2 Sep) saya telah diberi kata dua oleh Perdana Menteri samada untuk memilih meletakkan jawatan atau dilucutkan atau disingkirkan dari jawatan. Saya tidak bersedia meletakkan jawatan kerana saya telah maklumkan berulang kali kepada beliau bahawa memang ada pakatan konspirasi politik yang digunakan di peringkat tertinggi untuk menjatuhkan saya, dan tidak ada alasan yang munasabah, tidak ada kesediaan dan keberanian untuk menghadapi proses demokratik dalam pemilihan parti, maka dipilih cara yang paling kotor dan jijik menggunakan jentera Kerajaan dan instrumen Kerajaan untuk menfitnah, mengesahkan fitnah, mereka membuat tuduhan, memaksa saksi untuk membuat kenyataan palsu dan kemudian dengan sengaja mengaibkan saya dan keluarga saya. Saya ingin ucapkan terima kasih kerana isteri saya Azizah dan anak-anak sentiasa bersama saya dan tidak mudah diperdaya dengan tuduhan-tuduhan jahat dan palsu. Saya sudah bayangkan bahawa ini semua akan berlaku, sebab itulah rumah ini memang sengaja dikosongkan lebih 3 bulan yang lalu kerana saya menjangka saya akan pulang ke rumah ini. Sebab itu saya terima dengan baik dan saya tidak terlalu terkejut dengan keputusan itu. Saya juga melihat peranan media tempatan yang dimainkan oleh beberapa orang tertentu untuk sengaja memburukkan, mengaibkan saya, dari skandal seks kepada isu pembunuhan, menjadi agen negara asing, rasuah dan pengkhianat kepada negara. Saya yakin, insya'allah, betapa pun muslihat dan perencanaan yang dibuat, kebenaran akan timbul akhirnya. Saya sebut kepada Perdana Menteri, dia boleh senaraikan dan bariskan 100 pelacur yang mengaku mengadakan hubungan seks, ini tak akan merobak kenyataan bahawa ia adalah fitnah yang direka dan ada orang yang dibeli, diugut dan dipaksa melakukan kenyataan.

Walaupun begitu, sebelum saya meninggalkan pejabat semalam, saya ucapkan terima kasih kepada Perdana Menteri Dr. Mahathir Mohamad atas kerjasama yang beliau berikan selama ini tapi saya kata saya tidak boleh bersekongkol dengan kegiatan jahat seperti ini. Saya tidak boleh mengalah dengan percubaan kotor begini dan saya berikan dokumen yang cukup, pengakuan bersumpah dan beberapa maklumat lain yang saya kepilkan yang membantu membuktikan bahawa memang ada konspirasi politik besar terhadap saya. Saya tahu percubaan mengaibkan sepertimana kes-kes yang berlaku di mahkamah hari ini bukan untuk mencari masalah keselamatan yang dituduh tetapi lebih banyak percubaan untuk mengaibkan saya

Rakyat Malaysia tidak sebodoh itu. Saya yakin.

Saya juga telah menasihatkan orang-orang saya, sahabat-sahabat saya, yang berani depan atau kurang berani depan untuk bersabar, menghormati undang-undang. Kalaupun saya mahu diheret ke mahkamah, hari ini atau malam ini atau esok saya bersedia. Kalaupun saya ditangkap di bawah Akta Keselamatan Dalam Negeri (ISA) saya ada cukup pengalaman, jadi saya bersedia. Cuma saya nak lahirkan rasa dukacita kerana mustahil negara demokratik yang ada prinsip, yang pertahankan prinsip keadilan, yang menghormati undang-undang, yang ada jentera penguatkuasaan, yang ada badan kehakiman, boleh diperalatkan dengan begitu nakal sekali sehingga boleh diperalat dan digunakan untuk menjalankan kegiatan dan mengesahkan konspirasi politik ini. Badan-badan ini harus menjadi badan bebas. Saya pernah umpamanya dituduh di antara lain menggunakan Badan Pencegah Rasuah (BPR) untuk bertindak ke atas Unit Perancang Ekonomi, untuk menyiasat Ketua Polis Negara dan menyiasat Peguam Negara. Saya tidak pernah mengarahkan Badan Pencegah Rasuah untuk menyiasat mereka. Tapi nyata ini dihebahkan supaya menimbulkan kerenggangan dan masalah dengan institusi-institusi Kerajaan tersebut. Jadi setakat ini, saya masih Timbalan Presiden Parti dan saya berharap saya tidak dihalang dari menghadiri mesyuarat Majlis Tertinggi pada malam ini. Saya juga berharap ada penyelesaian yang baik dalam parti dan disamping itu meminta supaya penyokong-penyokong dan rakyat bertenang sementara secara tegas menyuarakan padangan mereka menentang penipuan dan penyelewengan.

(Dato Seri Anwar kemudiannya menyampaikan kenyataannya dalam Bahasa Inggeris untuk wakil media asing)

Now…. I've been given an ultimatum yesterday by the Prime Minister either to resign or face the consequences … being sacked and possibly have charges levied against me. I've to … but of course I'll consult Azizah …. but made it clear in no uncertain terms that I'm not prepared to submit to this conspiracy, a political conspiracy to undermine my position and defeat me through nasty schemes. I've told him and challenged him to use to use democratic means to unseat me and not to submit to pressures from some quarters close to him or otherwise, rich and influential or otherwise, to continue this scheme. The scurrilous allegations and campaign began last year. I regret the fact that the issue of sexual misconduct has been highlighted even in the foreign media, but mind you, this were scurrilous allegations … no basis … I have enough documentary evidence, I have tapes, I have documents, I have statutory declarations under oath that would certainly defend and establish my innocence. But all these were ignored, all were completely ignored except the portion that's been taken to incriminate, implicate me and embarrass me and certainly the intention is to undermine the confidence of the Malaysian public in me. I'm the most corrupt, I'm involved in the complicity of murder, I'm an agent of a foreign power …I think the only reason … probably because I was given the red carpet treatment by the Secretary of Defence, United States. This is petty, this is preposterous and I think stems from petty jealousy. I mean if the red carpet is wanted, you can always have the red carpet above your house and underneath your house. But to assume that you are paid by a foreign party, that you are working to leak government secrets, threatening me … to charge me under the Internal Security Act, I've told the Prime Minister and many of my colleagues that I have had some experience of close to two years in the detention camp. So don't use that sort of a threat. And to line up prostitutes or whomever to admit to having sex . I told them that I also could pay some money to get some prostitutes to admit having sex with some others. If that is the game you want to play. But it is really unfortunate for this country because you will have to establish confidence in the judicial process, in the enforcement by the Police and not to call up witnessess, harrass them, force them to sign documents and ignore statutory declarations under oath. So, this is the position.

I am committed to reform this country. I'm committed to the struggle against corruption, abuse of power and cronyism and I will not concede nor compromise. The initial uneasiness stems from the reform and change in Indonesia. Somehow or other a lot of people here became rather nervous. I don't understand why because we have taken pride in suggesting that ours is a different system … more democratic, more transparent and more accountable. But to use the instruments of government to harass, manipulate through the media and through enforcement by the police is to my mind outrageous, unacceptable, and I will have no choice but to protect, defend my credibility and innocence and to call for a reform of the system.

And I have also urged my friends and supporters to remain calm, respect the law even if they choose to arrest me and charge me over whatever crimes that I am alleged to have committed, or even to detain me under the Internal Security Act. We'll continue with our effort towards reform, we'll continue to call for UMNO in particular to respect the need for change and reform and I appeal to my friends in the party, in the opposition and the rakyat in general not to be duped by the scurrilous campaign and attack without any basis except to undermine my credibility and embarassment.

I'm grateful, I'm proud to have Azizah by me. And the children. I'm certainly sorry for them to have to face this and I hope the Malaysian media which has been quite kind in the past will give at least an opportunity for me to explain and defend my case. I know you've been directed, I don't blame you journalists or photographers. I fully appreciate, OK? I don't want too many more dismissals but at least the least you can do is to explain to your children and your family that I'm not the type that they like to portray. I don't have…. I have not amassed wealth as Finance Minister by the billions or hundreds of millions and they can always conduct a fair, just investigation, not attempt to fabricate and frame because this is contrary to the very notion of justice.

In conclusion, I must say again this is part of a larger political conspiracy. There is no basis in the allegations. You can always print them, you can always put additional evidence to them. How is it that only when the question, or allegation, that I am now preparing myself to challenge the President of the Party arise that suddenly I become a threat to the country, a foreign agent, the most corrupt person. If I continue to show my total loyalty, none of these questions would arise. And in this government, the issue of moral conduct has never been a case or an issue in the past. And this is the first serious case. And what is most unfortunate -- the fabrications -- they have even shocked me personally. The extent that the instruments of government can be used to frame and fabricate … shocking to me, the Deputy Prime Minister. I'm still the Deputy President of the Party. I hope I won't be barred from attending the meeting today or tonight. So if they decide to charge or arrest they could do it a bit later and I'll of course choose that forum to give my explanation and defence. Thank you and terima kasih.

Question-and-answer session

Q: It is curious that the timing of your dismissal linked to the Prime Minister … (inaudible). And what do you think the economic course Dr Mahathir has now set Malaysia (inaudible due to loud applause by the supporters).

A: I can't preclude that possibility. That this has been planned for some time, they were not prepared to move earlier because the economic system, it was not insulated, they have to wait until after the first (day of September). I thought they would have waited at least for a week but I think they have waited long enough and tolerated me long enough. And therefore even the timing confirms my belief that it is a well formed, well planned, and well orchestrated move which is political. This is beyond normal action … through the enforcement division or the Attorney General's office. Yes.

Q: (Inaudible)

A: I don't know … by him personally or not … but I think he will have to explain … there's no question. I am totally convinced. I've written to him about it, two letters last week or so, suggesting, giving evidence there's a clear case of abuse of power, using the instruments of government, including the Attorney General's office and the Police, to fabricate and harass and frame and fabricate charges.

Q: If you saw this day coming, why did you not take an initiative earlier?

A: Well, I still had some hope that rationality would prevail. That the interest of the party and country should come first. Not the interest of a colleague or a few. And that was why I refrained. And you should have seen developments in the local media, both in the print and electronic media. There's a continuous attempt to insinuate, to embarrass me … accusations about sexual misconduct and working as a foreign agent have been continuing for weeks, but I have refrained from making any comment.

Q: What is your comment on the affidavit?

A: You are making reference to Dato' Nalla, who happens to be one of my occasional tennis partners. But certainly. I have seen his affidavit -- last week -- which makes specific or clear reference of the fact that he has been harrassed and forced to sign three files admitting to things that he has not done or seen. And threatened -- if he fails to do so the answer will be the death penalty and the possibility of his wife being arrested. The case is before the court but it certainly takes a man of principles and guts to establish the truth and defend his right.

Q: You advise your supporters to remain calm. What sort of support do you have from those who are close to you and to what extent do you think … (inaudible).

A: I'm not in the position to assess right now. That's why I'm appealing for calm and understanding, but I know for a fact that thousands have been denied entry to my residence. Well, I don't know … the police may think that it is an official residence too close to the Prime Minister's residence. Therefore I've decided to move to my residence as fast as possible. And I hope the police wouldn't deny … there's no law against people coming to visit me unless they want to introduce a new law -- which is possible -- which could be called an Anwar Residence Act.

Q: When you say that there is a political conspiracy against you, would you specifically say that it is by Mahathir?

A: It is certainly a political conspiracy against me, to preclude any possibility … or suspicion … that I may decide to challenge the President. I cannot establish whether for now Dato' Seri Dr Mahathir is personally directing it or involved. But I have pledged loyalty to him. I thank him and I told him that other than my real father I do regard him in all sincerity as a father, although not all fathers treat their children very fairly.

Q: Adakah di kalangan ahli Majlis Tertinggi sendiri yang terbabit dalam konspirasi politik untuk menjatuhkan Dato' Seri?

A: Ada di Majlis Tertinggi, ada yang kaya, ada yang korporat, ada yang di luar yang saya ada bukti, saya ada dokumen, saya ada tape. I am not prepared to name them now.

Q: Adakah mereka akan diheretkan ke mahkamah, Dato' Seri?

A: Ya. My next course of action is to attend the Majlis Tertinggi meeting.

Q: Do you expect to be charged?

A: Yes, I know. The question is whether I expect to be charged. Yes. In fact I was told that there is a possibility I will be charged under the Official Secrets Act or some other act. There are a lot of acts … they can always use some, even the Internal Security Act.

Q: Dato' Seri, one of the most serious charges is about the child mentioned. Would you submit yourself to a DNA test which will once and for all prove your innocence?

A: Well my legal advisors strongly advised against a DNA test … that there is no credibility in the allegation … in the sense that it is not a paternity suit, it is not a custodial battle. Somebody saw the girl in a car going somewhere. I wasn't seen. They didn't know where she went, and suddenly we have a child. Now let me put it this way. Although the legal advice is very clear, I then took a decision, having discussed it with Azizah, and both Azmin and his wife, and we then decided on our own that we will conduct the DNA test because apparently the AG was keen, the IGP was keen and the Prime Minister was supportive. So I thought-- okay, why not? Since they are all supporting me on this case, wanting to establish the truth, I told them,"Yes, I'm prepared" and, al-hamdu-lliLlah, hopefully it is not tampered by now. I don't want to preclude the possibility of tampering. That is why we have done both with the police, and we have done one overseas … both have established that Azmin and his wife are the biological parents. Can you imagine and appreciate: there's no legal basis whatsoever, but I got to go … was forced … through this exercise. What do I ask for? Sympathy? Understanding? What do I ask for? I ask for justice, and I demand justice. If the Number 2 man in this country cannot be satisfied that justice will prevail, I am sorry for Malaysia.

(The crowd shouts "Allahu Akbar" several times)

Q: Apakah situasi politik di Malaysia sekarang ini sedang mengarah kepada sama dengan Indonesia di zaman Suharto?

A: Kita harap sebelumnya jangan. Tapi mesej itu tidak diperolehi dengan baik, saya percaya rakyat akan memberikan mesej yang jelas. Kita perlu peka. Reformasi harus berlaku.

Q: Memandangkan fitnah ini datangnya daripada UMNO, adakah Dato' Seri merasa wajar untuk keluar daripada UMNO?

A: Fitnah ini tidak datang dari UMNO. UMNO tidak terlibat dengan kegiatan fitnah ini. Beberapa orang yang terlibat, kebetulan ahli UMNO, tidak boleh kita putuskan dan hukum UMNO sebagai Parti yang terlibat.

Q: Adakah Dato' Seri diminta meletakkan jawatan sebagai Timbalan Presiden UMNO?

A: Perdana Menteri ada beri bayangan kepada saya, tapi perlantikan sebagai Timbalan Perdana Menteri dan Menteri Kewangan adalah budibicara Perdana Menteri. Kedudukan sebagai Timbalan President… itu budibicara para perwakilan. Jadi saya harap jangan ambil alih tugas.

Q: Do you wish one day you'll be a Prime Minister.

A: I got to think about it.

Q: Adakah nama-nama dalam Majlis Tertinggi yang terbabit dalam konspirasi diberi kepada polis?

A: Dalam surat saya kepada Perdana Menteri, nama-nama ini disebut. Dan ini disahkan oleh laporan polis tahun lalu. Laporan Polis tahun lalu mengesahkan nama-nama orang yang terlibat tetapi tidak ada tindakan, bahkan nasihat pun tidak diberikan kepada mereka.

(The crown shouts "Allahu Akbar").

Q: Adakah Dato' Seri bersedia mendedahkan nama-nama mereka yang terbabit?

A: Saya belum bersedia berbuat sekarang.

Q: You have been indirectly blamed for the contraction of the economy. Would you accept that?

A: I've been indirectly blamed for the contraction of the economy.

Q: No one has blamed you, but they said the Bank Negara…..

A: I thought Soros is being blamed, you know. So that's why I said there's a political ploy now: "Blame everybody else except me. Blame everyone else, foreign and local, except me."

Q: Do you accept being blamed for the mess of the economy?

A: I was part of the government then, I share part of the responsibility.

Q: Can I doublecheck with you Dato' Seri? You have undergone 2 DNA tests and both proved that the biological parents are the same.

A: Yeah. It cannot be two with different results, except if this result done by the police is being tampered with. Then I don't know.

Q: Why do you scare Dr. Mahathir so much? Do you think you can challenge and win?

A: I don't think…. Frankly if Dato' Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad takes a very rational view he should appreciate the fact that I am committed and continue to support him, not necessarily all his policies and decisions. I'm more liberal, more democratic and I believe in a civil society. I believe in a freer media but now things have changed somewhat. So I don't understand why he should feel so threatened.

Q: Well you said "if he took a rational view." Are you implying that he is not being very rational these days?
A: That is for the media to interpret.

Q: Are you prepared to challenge him?

A: The question is a bit premature.

Q: With the happenings now, do you feel your political career is over?

A: We should know (soon). We leave it to God. People can plan, but God decides. In this context we should use our intelligence and be patient. I have advised my friends to follow the law and uphold party principles and save the country.

Q: Do you expect people to line up behind you at UMNO, given the fact that Mahathir has not tolerated criticism or dissent?

A: I appreciate the viewpoint. Unless the environment is free, it is going to be rather difficult. But we will have to trust.

Q: Is there a possibility you will move to an opposition party?

A: I am committed to UMNO.

Q: Dato' Seri akan mengadakan proses undang undang?

A: Am I using the legal process to defend myself? Yes, of course.

Q: Have you started with it.

A: Ya. Sudah

Q: Ada tak dokumentasi atau kaset, surat mengatakan ada ahli Majlis Tertinggi terbabit dalam konspirasi politik?

A: Ya. Kepada Perdana Menteri.

Q: Polis?

A: Belum, sebab Polis tak tanya saya apa pun. Sampai hari ini belum tanya lagi. Saya tidaklah minta dia tanya banyak-banyak. Tapi dia buat keputusan semua, hukum, charge, tuduhan berdasarkan maklumat-maklumat sampingan diperolehi. Saya…. tak sepatah pun tak payah tanya.

Q: (inaudible)

A: The question is, have I talked to the Police and established this based on the facts, statutory declarations and documents that I possess. My reply is that the Police did not ask me, they did not even interview me. They merely accepted the flying letters and some allegations by some quarters and they then form a conclusion and recommended for action through the AG. And the AG's Office also conveniently framed these charges, maximum possible. I mean, you name it…. treason, OSA, sexual misconduct of all types.

Q: Have you seen these charges?

A: You see, I've not seen them, but then I was Deputy Prime Minister so I have some confidants around.

Q: Apakah ada pemimpin parti lain yang menjemput Dato' Seri menyertai parti mereka?

A: Tidak. Pemimpin-pemimpin UMNO telefon saya, pemimpin komponen Barisan Nasional hubungi saya, pimpinan DAP, PAS menelefon menyatakan simpati, dan saya hormat sebagai kawan, sebagai sahabat, sebagai ahli parti.

Q: Do you think that, categorically, there is no truth in any of these allegations of sexual impropriety.

A: No. It is part of a conspiracy. They were fabricated. I have documentary evidence to substantiate that. I have tapes to substantiate that. I have statutory declarations under oath to substantiate that. I have witnesses coming to tell me that they were harassed, threatened. If they do not commit themselves (to being witnesses for the prosecution), they will be charged for other offences. You mean to say that this is the democratic process? And this is a fair legal process? This is unjust administration of laws.

Q: Dato' Seri, what do you have to say about the legacy of Dr. Mahathir?

A: I must say he has done great things too, and I don't think I would deny that. I would still put on record my appreciation to all his services in the past. I don't think … it really, really hurts me to see that one could use the instrument of the government to this extent. I am totally shocked, really, I am telling you this. I'm not naïve politically, but I am shocked that they can go to this extent. Even when I was with the Youth (UMNO Youth movement), with ABIM in the past, I was harrassed but never have I seen this extent of abuse of power and harrassment. In the entire process, you know, they questioned virtually everybody. All my known friends, even members of the judiciary. If he is a man, he is transferred out. If a lady, she is asked whether she is with the Prime Minister or Deputy Prime Minister, or whether she has some private private dealings with me.

Q: Adakah kes ini hQendak disamakan dengan kes Bill Clinton?

A: Yes, they try. I want to establish this. I've been around a long time and I am going to defend myself. So don't finish all the questions today. (Laughter)

Q: Would you have challenged Mahathir in next year's (party) election?

A: Premature question.

Q: Are your movements restricted currently?

A: My movement is not restricted but … it is really unfortunate … yesterday I got the notice, today my office is sealed. I can't even take my personal belongings. If you want to act against me, Anwar Ibrahim, why harass all the other staff, clerks, office assistants and officers. They can't even enter their office. They can't even look at their files and their personal records. Yesterday there was a personal letter, a copy of a personal letter to the Prime Minister that the Police forced to be shredded. Apa ini? You know…

Q: Adakah orang ini juga akan mengalami nasib yang sama, Dato' Seri?

A: Nasib apa?

Q: Nasib yang sama, dipecat atau diminta mengundur diri?

A: Bila?

Q: Dalam Kabinet, any of your people?

A: I don't know.

Q: Any cabinet minister involved (in the conspiracy to bring him down)?

A: Ya.

Q: You keep mentioning about things being unjust, unjust, undemocratic under Mahathir's administration. How come when you were Deputy PM you never brought it up?

A: I brought it up. You read again The Asian Renaissance. And that probably was a mistake. To many, I said too much in that book on reform, the legal system of a civil society--and people read between the lines--and the free media, you see. So don't ever suggest that I have never said (all this) in very strong terms.

Q: Dalam affidavit mahkamah dinyatakan Dato' Seri menerima RM60 juta untuk pilihanraya 1995. Boleh Dato' Seri jelaskan?

A: Duitnya di mana? Saya tak tahu.

Q: Dalam affidavitnya.

A: Ya, dalam affidavit dia. Dia dapat dokumen mana? Dia terus buat tuduhan. Sebenarnya dia tahu tuduhan itu tidak boleh disahkan buktinya tetapi cukup sekadar mempertikaikan kewibawaan saya sebab itu saya katakan tuduhan itu jahat.

Q: Benarkah Dato' Nalla selalu mengikuti Dato' Seri keluar negara dan menjadi orang tengah untuk menyebarkan berita dan menjual berita kepada negara asing?

A: Itu mereka yang kata. Dia frame charges itu. Saya tidak tahu. Yang saya tahu Dato' Nalla sekali-sekali ada ikut. Bukan dia saja, beratus orang ikut saya. Mengapa tak tangkap semua yang lain, tanya apa dia orang buat.

Q: Boleh Dato' Seri jelaskan hubungan Dato' Seri dengan Dato' Nalla?

A: Ya, dia sekali-sekali main tennis dengan saya. Saya main tennis dengan dia, ataupun Dato' Ghazi atau Allahyarham Dato' Wan Adli. Dalam kunjungan ke luar negara, beratus orang ikut saya. Yang ikut Dato' Seri Dr. Mahathir lagi ramai.

Q: Did you support capital controls? Did you argue this point?

A: I am now member of Parliament for Permatang Pauh.

Q: Sorry…

A: I am now a normal MP from Permatang Pauh, Penang.

Q: But before, I mean when you were part of this, did you have any say over capital controls?

A: We have expressed very strong views on many of these issues but when we finally decided, we have to decide as a team. And I am a team player.

Q: If you are detained under ISA, who's gonna clear your name?

A: I believe that the rakyat will.

The crowd shouts "Yes"

END